Author Topic: SOCC/MFS Commcen merger?  (Read 46711 times)

Offline Alan (Big Al)

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Re: SOCC/MFS Commcen merger?
« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2007, 10:25:59 PM »
Gotta love the whole acknowledge thing. our group was told by region that there is to be no acknowledging pagers to SHQ if you don't come up on air within 7mins then you default......

Thats fine but our brigade at night only just scrapes in on the 7 min mark as a lot of our members live up one end of town, so pretty much being the first one there i ring SHQ and Acknowledge the page, as there is nothing worse than defaulting at 2 in the morning only to go mobile 20-30 seconds later.

Yet i have asked a member of the SOCC if we are/nt meant to acknowledge page and i got the answer " we prefer it" as they hate defaulting soemone to have them up on air  1 minute later going mobile....

Mack might be able to better answer that statement??

So is our group getting or giving mixed messages?? ( yes i realise this is all about to change.) :-D

End Rant

As for the new system, why not have it that if the brigade doesn't contact MFS within 6 minutes whether it be by radio or phone they default??? Wouldn't that be easier than MFS ringing the alerts no. ????
Lt. Goolwa CFS

Offline Pipster

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Re: SOCC/MFS Commcen merger?
« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2007, 10:42:33 PM »
Unfortunately, it was said that at this meeting, in terms of call receipt & dispatch, "everything will be the same...no change to what you do now, except you talk to the Call sign "Adeladie Fire" not "State HQ"

But then went on to detail the process & procedures which haven't changed, but those procedures were slightly different to what we in Region 1 currently ...and thus created confusion amongst those at the meeting.

It was clear from comments made at the meeting, by those attending, that many people have no idea of why they do the things they do now, in terms of call receipt & dispatch (and that is what we are talking about - call receipt & dispatch NOT SACAD )

There were some issues where suggestions had been made as to what procedures are going to occur, which did show a lack of understanding of how Groups & brigades in general, work with their call receipt & dispatch.

Perhaps to elaborate a little further on what others have posted...

A suggestion was made that when a response page is sent to a CFS brigade, that the Adelaide Fire then ring the ALERTS number for the brigade, to confirm that the page has been received, rather than wait for a brigade to either come up on radio, or ring through on the phone, to acknowledge the RECEIPT of the page.

A few problems with that

It was stated that sometimes if Adelaide Fire were busy, they wouldn't get time to ring the ALERTS in all cases... so straight away you have a system that works some of the time, but not necessarily all of the time.

A major issue for some Groups, the ALERTS system is run on a Group basis, not a brigade basis...so there might be 8 phone answerers on ALERTS.   A page for brigade "Somewhere' is sent, and Adelaide Fire rings the ALERTS number to confirm the page.  Probelm is only 3 of the phone answerers have a Group Pager, and the rest don't get the page for the "Somewhere" brigade, and hence can't confirm that a page has been received, because their pagers can't receive the message anyway...

In addition, if that Group ALERTS system was contacted everytime there was a page for that Group, that would be a lot of calls through a small number of people, who may well be rather peeved to receive large number of calls, for something they have no involvement in anyway!!


It was suggested from those presenting the session, that we could call in on our home phone, or our mobile on the way to the station,to acknowledge the page.    I don't think the concept of a) if you don't have a hands free kit, you are acting illegally in making the call, and b) many areas have limited or no mobile phone coverage, and hence making the call on the way to the station is pointless!!!


The issue in relation to times taken to acknowledge a call was also a point of discussion - currently EMA brigades have 4 minutes to acknowledge the call with Adelaide Fire, while the rest of us currently have 6 minutes to acknowledge the pager.  If no acknowledgement was received then a default brigade is called.  The suggesting made at the presentation was that the time be 4 minute acknowledgement time....many at the meeting felt that particularly for rural brigades, 4 minutes is a very difficult time frame for crews to get to the station and acknowledge the page.........


These two issues were going to be explored by those in charge of the project, and see what they can come up with.

But with only 2 weeks before the transition to the new system, not having sorted out these issue is a bit of a concern.  

I hope that they can quickly sort out these issues, and advise us all BEFORE the commencement of the new system...

Pip





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Offline bittenyakka

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Re: SOCC/MFS Commcen merger?
« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2007, 10:57:34 PM »
Well i guess i am lucky to be in a brigade that nothing will really change.

when you say EMA brigades have 3 minutes to acknowledge a page does that mean the Brigade is responded wit MFS for this job or the brigade sometimes works with MFS and so has to respond with in 3 min?

Offline CFS_Firey

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Re: SOCC/MFS Commcen merger?
« Reply #53 on: June 15, 2007, 11:06:22 PM »
bittenyakka - Firstly, its 4 minutes not 3 minutes... But to answer your question, in this case EMA brigades means brigades responded by MFS.  This means that if the pager message begins with MFS: RESPOND you have 4 minutes to acknowledge the page, rather than the 6 minutes you would have if the message was sent by SHQ.

ltdan

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Re: SOCC/MFS Commcen merger?
« Reply #54 on: June 15, 2007, 11:47:23 PM »
When a brigade rings Adelaide Fire to acknowledge the call this  should be able to be completed quite easily the options are: 1. Elect a Brigade Duty Officer if you do not have one and get them to ring prior leaving their house or what ever they are doing.  (To ring and confirm the page will take no longer than 30 seconds.)  2.Or if the BDO has a GRN they can call via 124 and acknowledge the page.  3.Or do as most brigades do now get the first person arriving to the station to confirm the page. I would not think it would be very often if someone would not arrive at a station within the 4 or 6 minute mark and if they don't, contingency's should be put in place to default brigades.  So what, if another brigade is responded then told to stand down these things happen it is better to over resource than under resource.

I felt that their was fear that at exactly 4 minutes another brigade would be defaulted and for the people what enjoy monitoring the paging website would be able to confirm that the 4 minute default very rarely occurs maybe at the 6 minute mark it occurs and most times past this time as well.

My understanding that the alerts notification would not go ahead as we were in agreeance that this would not work, and in fact at the moment the BOMS brigades do not get a phone call we ring MFS ourselves.  Further to this not all brigades and groups alerts work and due to software corruption their has been great trouble in trying to repair these problems. 

The 4 minutes is pretty flexible you very rarely going to get another station paged after 4 minutes it is probably more like 6 minutes as per cfs sop.

At a big picture meaning out of Region 1 rural brigades and regions 2,3,4,5,6 think that acknowledging a page in 4 minutes is not an issue, but for some unknown reason it is an issue here in 1.  Where you would think it would be easier for a brigade in region 1 to acknowledge the page in 4 minutes than other regions.

I guess at the moment their are so many different ways of dispatch in the cfs and some of these probably not directly adhering to the SOP's but this moment in time gives us the opportunity to rectify these problems which may be occurring.

Offline 5271rescue

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Re: SOCC/MFS Commcen merger?
« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2007, 10:20:24 AM »
dont see why we should call them,radio is faster to call them up and as for them being busy well one can only hope that on a TFB that they will have more staff to cover these busdy days......
blinky bill
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Offline bittenyakka

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Re: SOCC/MFS Commcen merger?
« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2007, 10:40:40 AM »
we have been calling(phone) them for a while and it works fine. Personally ringing   MFS is easier than radio especially if MFS is on speed dial.

pumprescue

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Re: SOCC/MFS Commcen merger?
« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2007, 10:40:51 AM »
If you can't get one single person to your station in 4 mins then I think you should be defaulted, we do have an incident to attend, so 4 mins is pretty good, like ltdan said, create a duty officer, he or she can aknowledge the page, and make sure the truck responds. If you can't make a phone call, radio call etc in 4 mins, then something is wrong, hence the default.

I know some brigades are just lazy, you know they are there, they just don't so it, so toughen up, its done for a reason.

As for resource tracking, if my station isn't open, I am staying on 124, with all the coronial crap, I want what I am doing recorded, 99% of commcen's in the world run the jobs, we are the exception, in victoria now they all run through either vicfire in the city or vicfire ballarat, BUT we must keep our transmissions to the point, CFS is very very bad at our radio work, we woffle far to much.

probie_boy

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Re: SOCC/MFS Commcen merger?
« Reply #58 on: June 17, 2007, 05:34:05 PM »
should we move this to members only before some news on this falls into the wrong hands?

Offline Firefrog

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Re: SOCC/MFS Commcen merger?
« Reply #59 on: June 17, 2007, 06:53:49 PM »
All straight forward stuff so far....No need to move 8-)

Offline Pixie

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Re: SOCC/MFS Commcen merger?
« Reply #60 on: June 17, 2007, 08:08:24 PM »
SHQ: ANDY PLEASE PHONE CLARE PEDDY AT THE ADVERTISER 82062204 REGARDING CHANGES TO CFS COMMUNICATIONS CENTRE TO MFS COMMUNICATIONS CENTRE < 17/06/2007 14:50:26

hrmmmm....
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Offline 5271rescue

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Re: SOCC/MFS Commcen merger?
« Reply #61 on: June 17, 2007, 08:17:59 PM »
So where did the rest of the SOCC staff go to??? if only 4 got jobs at MFS...
blinky bill
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Offline RescueHazmat

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Re: SOCC/MFS Commcen merger?
« Reply #62 on: June 17, 2007, 09:20:54 PM »
I *think* it may be 5..


However as the remaining were to my understanding Casuals, unless CFS move them into another area, one could only *assume* their would be no position for them..


Hopefully im wrong though, would hate to hear some of them lost their job.

Offline Darius

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Re: SOCC/MFS Commcen merger?
« Reply #63 on: June 18, 2007, 10:18:25 AM »
yes it's 5 (as has already been said).  Some will stay at SOCC, there is other things they do apart from CRD and radio comms.

other points, Pip the 4 mins default time currently is all brigades direct-paged by MFS, not just EMA brigades.  And as for pumprescue, you're obviously in an urban area with many members near the station, which is your good fortune.  In my brigade (semi-rural) we struggle to get anyone to the station in 4 mins simply due to the distance.  If I run out the back door as the pager goes off it takes me between 3-4 mins to get to the station.  If I am out in the paddock (only talking a small property too) or in bed and have to get dressed first etc, it's easily 5 mins.  And I am one of the closer members to the station.  Out in rural areas it can be much longer of course again due to the distances involved.

It struck me at the meeting, there was much confusion what the default time (whether 4 or 6 mins or whatever) is for.  Talking after within my group we understood it to mean that if you acknowledge receipt of the pager message to MFS/SOCC then you (personally) then take responsibility for a truck getting out the door in a reasonable timeframe or else you contact MFS/SOCC again to respond another brigade (ie. default).  This is the way we have been working.

Now it appears they are saying anyone can acknowledge the page as all you are doing is confirming the pager message was sent out properly.  But the big question then is who takes responsibility that a truck gets out the door or another brigade is responded.  Because of course at the time of acknowledging the page you don't know yet if you will get a crew.  I could be 2 hours away from home (or somewhere closer but not in a position to respond) but still ring MFS/SOCC and acknowledge the page then carry on what I was doing.  So who will ensure there is a timely response?  Or is it that they are now saying that acknowledging the page does not stop the "defaulting timer", as it currently does?  If so, that means we now have 4 or 6 mins to get rolling instead of currently 4 or 6 mins to acknowledge the page (which will mean a lot more defaulting will happen).  I can't see it working properly either way but perhaps (hopefully) there is something I am missing.

Offline TillerMan

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Re: SOCC/MFS Commcen merger?
« Reply #64 on: June 18, 2007, 12:44:30 PM »
There will only be 4 OCO's going even though all the paper work says 5....

It's not all that difficult is it? You have 6 minutes to acknowledge the page, that means you have 6 minutes to tell adelaide fire that at least one person in your brigade has the details, if you do not that means to adelaide fire that you have possibly not received the page and they will ring your ALERTS to see whats going on, if you don't answer your alerts they will send another brigade. It would be preferable that you acknowledge the page from the station but if someone does acknowledge the page elsewhere they should have a radio to monitor when the truck is mobile eg. a Captain or Group officer.

As part of EMA those brigades that do EMA will still have to go by the EMA rules when responding into MFS area.

2 questions/comments i have and will be saying.

1. When responding to MFS area do you have to go mobile with CFS and MFS seeing as they will be right next to each other?
2. I will just be staying on the state talkgroup until a station is on air.
 

Offline fireblade

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Re: SOCC/MFS Commcen merger?
« Reply #65 on: June 18, 2007, 03:40:06 PM »
I have to agree with Tillerman, it is really not that hard our station has a stationed owned mobile. Pager goes off you ring Adelaide fire if your the Duty officer, they give you any relavant infomation about the job. So while your on the way to the station you already have a pre-plan in your head or when your Lt's and Snr's come up on air on your local talk group if they are at the station before you, you can relay any infomation on your local talk group and get an appliance rolling down the street.

A lot of urban fringe brigades have been doing this for years. I think if you don't reply in the alloted time you get defaulted why expect Adelaide fire especially if they are busy to ring around looking for whats going on in a brigade.

 Talk about a storm in a tea cup! :evil:

Offline CFS_Firey

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Re: SOCC/MFS Commcen merger?
« Reply #66 on: June 18, 2007, 04:00:26 PM »
I have to agree with Tillerman, it is really not that hard our station has a stationed owned mobile. Pager goes off you ring Adelaide fire if your the Duty officer, they give you any relavant infomation about the job. So while your on the way to the station you already have a pre-plan in your head or when your Lt's and Snr's come up on air on your local talk group if they are at the station before you, you can relay any infomation on your local talk group and get an appliance rolling down the street.
And if the person with the station mobile is unavailable / out of reception / misses the page, what happens then?  How do the people at the station know if the page has been acknowledged? What if the duty officer (who acknowledges the page) is 15 minutes from the station and arrives to find no one else has responded? In an urban brigade, the brigade should have defaulted 10 minutes ago...

Offline bittenyakka

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Re: SOCC/MFS Commcen merger?
« Reply #67 on: June 18, 2007, 04:20:13 PM »
so just make it first at the station confirms the page or if distance is a problem have a duty officer.

Offline Crankster 34

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Re: SOCC/MFS Commcen merger?
« Reply #68 on: June 18, 2007, 05:05:39 PM »
What if the person that acknowledges the page is in Adelaide, but there is a localised paging outage in the South East and no one down there receives it. You then have MFS believing the page has been received and no one responding to the station.

Just make it the first person in the station acknowledges the page, then they take ownership of getting the truck out the door or defaulting to another brigade - easy.
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Offline Mike

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Re: SOCC/MFS Commcen merger?
« Reply #69 on: June 18, 2007, 05:35:36 PM »
The key to this part of the discussion is that WE should be contacting Adelaide Fire, rather than them contacting us. All brigades should already have a process in place that works for them, so keep using it!

In our case the GDO is always carrying a radio with them. They acknowledge the page and notify of default if the bigade doesnt come online (GRN 124).

We just need it acknowledged by the powers that be to ensure a consistant, smooth running (ie. as it is!) system.

Offline backburn

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Re: SOCC/MFS Commcen merger?
« Reply #70 on: June 18, 2007, 06:42:55 PM »
we have our information night in mid July so a few calls to a room with no in it might happen. We have no problem getting someone there in 4 mins

Offline TillerMan

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Re: SOCC/MFS Commcen merger?
« Reply #71 on: June 19, 2007, 11:53:47 AM »
As i said preferably the page should be acknowledged at the station but if distance doesn't alow that then someone with a radio should be given the job, if that person is the only one to get the page then at least they can ask for the brigade to be re-paged and for a default brigade to be sent. Like was said every brigade should currently have a system in place for this and if they don't they better get to planning one. E.g my brigade will default after 6 minutes if the truck is not MOBILE but this is only MY brigade that does this, other brigades may have other ways of doing it. As long as that page is acknowledged so that the brigade takes control of their response. This is alot better than if CFS just turned around and said if your not MOBILE in 8 or 10 or 12 minutes then you will be defaulted, that would just get messy.

Offline fireblade

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Re: SOCC/MFS Commcen merger?
« Reply #72 on: June 21, 2007, 01:51:24 PM »
And if the person with the station mobile is unavailable / out of reception / misses the page, what happens then?  How do the people at the station know if the page has been acknowledged? What if the duty officer (who acknowledges the page) is 15 minutes from the station and arrives to find no one else has responded? In an urban brigade, the brigade should have defaulted 10 minutes ago...

To answer to this is simple the duty officer is the Capt/Lt if they are out of area one of the other Lt's has the duty phone so therefore has a radio on them so knows whats going on at the station. Has been working at our station for years as we rarely get responded by CFS SOC. We use to make it first to the station but some of the guys would forget with being more interested in getting the appliance out the door, but what ever works for the individual brigade is fine. :-D

pumprescue

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Re: SOCC/MFS Commcen merger?
« Reply #73 on: June 26, 2007, 03:30:44 PM »
what if you all had to go and fight fire instead of saying "what if" 500 times on this forum....If you don't get on the road in the allocated time you should default, if you dont default you are a few screws loose in the head and should not be in the fire brigade.

Offline Robert-Robert34

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Re: SOCC/MFS Commcen merger?
« Reply #74 on: June 26, 2007, 06:34:37 PM »
At our brigade meeting last night we were told that every shift once Adelaide Fire takes over dispatch and paging from CFS will include an ex CFS SOC member   :-) 
Kalangadoo Brigade